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OC Transpo - Future bus replacements


The next bus model to be acquired for OC Transpo's fleet.  

5 members have voted

  1. 1. Which model of bus do you think OC Transpo will acquire next after the initial order of Novabus LFS is completed?

    • Novabus LFS
      4
    • New Flyer Xcelsior
      1
    • Alexander Dennis double decker
      0
    • Other out-of-country manufacturer
      0


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OC Transpo is going through a fleet renewal over the next several years. Already they have started retiring some hybrids and Inveros and acquired the Novabus LFS. While the numbers seem to be uncertain, there are around 300 Inveros and 175 hybrids. Word is that they want to replace around 300 buses, but it does remain to be seen how many will actually get bought due to fleet reduction from the LRT (although the Stage 2 detours will require more buses)....

With the exit of Orion from the bus industry in Canada, that leaves New Flyer, Novabus and Alexander Dennis (double deckers, which were recently acquired by New Flyer).

As far as I know, for the past 30-40 years, the bus fleet has been Canadian built. (Possible exception would be the GM Classics, as I am not sure of their origin). I know in Quebec there is a Quebec manufacturing requirement in new bus purchases (which pretty much hands the job to Novabus). Does such a thing exist in Ontario and for OC Transpo, requiring some percentage of Canadian content?

With the Novabus LFS seemingly being well received by customers, do you think there will be more after this initial order?

New Flyer seems to be only building their Xcelsior family of buses at this time. Available in 35, 40 and 60 foot versions, it could fit the bill for the replacements. 

I've never ridden or seen in person an Xcelsior bus, although I think Vancouver operate some?? 

As far as Alexander Dennis double decker, they have a sufficient number in the fleet, I just don't see them getting any more.

What are your thoughts, what do you think will win out for the next order?

Cast your vote and give your reasoning below...

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The articulated fleet made up of D60LF and D60LFr accounts for over 1/3rd of the entire bus fleet. These are real people mover buses, but do have trouble in the snow and in winter storms. Wouldn't be

You are actually right! Computer-assisted hydrolic joints made in Germany! http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/trc/2006/06-21/ACS2006-PWS-DCM-0001.htm I understand that it was done

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9 hours ago, Shane said:

I know in Quebec there is a Quebec manufacturing requirement in new bus purchases (which pretty much hands the job to Novabus). Does such a thing exist in Ontario and for OC Transpo, requiring some percentage of Canadian content?

The requirement for Quebec manufacturing was for municipalities who wanted subsidies in their purchase by the provincial government, in the case where a Quebec-made alternative was available. As such, many cities have started importing products from other countries as Nova doesn't offer an alternative.

In Ontario, there is a program of the sort (unless Doug slashed it), but applies mostly to Metrolinx purchases. If the ON government subsidizes, there is clauses favouring "made in Ontario". However, municipalities can opt out, especially in the case of Ottawa which is (relatively speaking) far from the golden horseshoe.

I expect we'll see more Novabus in the future, especially after the completion of Stage 2: most routes will now be local with the mass-transit done via rail, leaving the need for a mostly local fleet. Double-deckers have been a "mixed feeling" experience so far for Ottawa, with many crashes and it being a product not really suited for the market in which it operates. New Flyer might keep the articulated bus orders (unless Nova Artic are introduced, which would be an opportunity for electric buses at the same time. I am not a fan of the Xcelsior, both visually and in operation. Got to ride them in Brampton, and it was a "meh" to me. In fairness, I think we are way overdue for a proper renewal with electric buses, in a notable quantity, but the City seems to be really slow to move on this.

As for other manufacturers, I am not versed enough to say if they deserve a consideration, but any manufacturer who can offer a vehicle that is more efficient and able to work in our climate gets my vote.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I really think they will continue with the LFS. Seeing as they will receive 4683-4775 in November to replace more Inveros, it's only logical to go with NovaBus for any future 40 foot orders to stay consistent.

Although they really should iron out some kinks with the first order such as not enough padding for the seats, annoying beep every time a door opens, etc.

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What do you guys think will happen to our current D60LFR fleet a few years from now?

Our D60LFs are already starting to be refurbished and four have been done so far. We know they'd be staying another 4-5 years.

Edit: Double post... whoops. So used to CPTDB where they automatically merge your posts if you double post within 15 minutes.

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I’ll make that change. I think it’s currently set to 2 minutes to merge. 

I thought only 80-90 some LFS were ordered... it’s actually double? What is the delivery end month supposed to be?

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21 minutes ago, Shane said:

I’ll make that change. I think it’s currently set to 2 minutes to merge. 

I thought only 80-90 some LFS were ordered... it’s actually double? What is the delivery end month supposed to be?

4683-4775 is actually a separate order from 4601-4682. I would assume that the final ones from the first batch would come in September at the latest.

The new batch will start coming in November and will most likely continue into the new year.

Each order will have around 90 or so units. OC Transpo has already requested funds to purchase the new order.

79 buses from the 4683-4775 order will be Invero replacements, the other 12 units will simply be expansion buses.

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3 hours ago, OC Transpo/STO Fan said:

What do you guys think will happen to our current D60LFR fleet a few years from now?

A handful refurbished to continue service for another 4-5 years depending on the service needs post-Stage 2. The rest retired to get rid of surplus fleet.

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The articulated fleet made up of D60LF and D60LFr accounts for over 1/3rd of the entire bus fleet. These are real people mover buses, but do have trouble in the snow and in winter storms. Wouldn't be bad for the fleet to be more of the 40 foot variety, so that on bad weather days, they can be more reliable and not jack-knifing all over the place. Don't see them having such a fleet makeup post LRT and certainly after Stage 2 expansions. Perhaps it would drop down to the levels previously seen with the Ikarus which were around 150 or so versus 350+.

More 40 foot buses could mean more frequent service to O-Train stations. The goal in the future should be to improve upon the 30 minute bus service to 20 minutes.

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4 hours ago, Schwin said:

Don't see them having such a fleet makeup post LRT and certainly after Stage 2 expansions.

The needs for double-deckers / 60 foot is definitely gonna decrease, but I would still expect it to account for 1/4 or 1/5 of the fleet: all traffic from Barrhaven or Kanata will still need to travel to their end stations until Stage 3, which is quite gonna kill any need for buses over 40 foot.

As for reliability of the articulated, the capacity needs leaves us either with double deckers, articulated or a lot more 40 foot. Weirdly enough, it seems the jack-knifing issues of the D60LF is unique to it, or at least more common than other articulated buses on the market? The TTC, STM, STO, RTC are all running Nova Artic and seem to work "perfectly fine" in the winter?...

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I was under the understanding that the articulated joint on the D60LF series incorporated hydraulic rams that would lock to prevent over rotation and jackknifing from occurring. If this is true, what scenario do they actually prevent as there have been plenty jackknifes over the years.

I could have been mis-informed all those years ago...

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5 hours ago, Shane said:

I was under the understanding that the articulated joint on the D60LF series incorporated hydraulic rams that would lock to prevent over rotation and jackknifing from occurring. If this is true, what scenario do they actually prevent as there have been plenty jackknifes over the years.

I could have been mis-informed all those years ago...

You are actually right! Computer-assisted hydrolic joints made in Germany!

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/trc/2006/06-21/ACS2006-PWS-DCM-0001.htm

I understand that it was done as a result of a 2005 snowstorm that resulted in a work group.

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The vote options are missing some important players; BYD and Proterra. I have it on good authority that when the big fleet renewal requirements start to hit in 2023 and beyond the city (City Council anyway) wants to go with mostly electric buses instead of diesel. They're spending $6 million (possibly more with Fed funding) this year on a tender to buy "as many electric buses as possible" (most likely a half-dozen or so) to start and it looks like going forward they want most if not all new bus purchases to be battery-electric. Personally my money is on BYD. The TTC has bought a bunch and they're building a factory in Newmarket to build more of them so I can see BYD becoming a big player. If I were king of Canada though I would tell OC Transpo to get Proterra buses because they're awesome.

Oh, and LRT will necessitate more buses, not less. OC Transpo will find that they will need to feed the beast that is LRT so they will need more local routes and buses further out to shuttle people to the LRT stations. Every city in the world that has built an LRT system has had to increase the size of their bus fleets. It's more a question of composition. I see more 40' buses being needed and fewer 60' artics as the BRT is replaced with LRT.

Edited by Mike
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  • 3 weeks later...

4683-4775 will likely have padded seats.

The current Nova order has barely padded seats and OC Transpo apparently ordered them like that by mistake. They assumed that they would be padded because the seats came with drain holes.

4601-4682 will not be retrofitted with the padded seats until either rebuild or replacing individual seats when worn out.

I think it's the first time OC Transpo screwed up an order, although it's a relatively minor screw up.

(Credit goes to Enviro_1203 from CPTDB for giving this info)

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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  • 1 year later...

The Canada Infrastructure Bank commits up to $400 million in the City of Ottawa’s historic 450 zero-emission bus expansion

 
 
 
E-Bus.jpeg

Largest-ever single increase in zero-emission buses for public transit in Canada 

 

Canadian municipalities are leaders in taking action on climate change and the Canada Infrastructure Bank (CIB) is partnering with them to significantly increase sustainable public transit.

The CIB and the City of Ottawa are proud to announce their agreement in principle, which would see the CIB invest up to $400 million, supporting OC Transpo’s adoption of 450 zero-emission buses (ZEBs) by 2027. This is the CIB’s second ZEB investment commitment with a large municipality and supports the largest conversion of public transit vehicles in Canada to date.

ZEBs can improve the quality of life for residents who will benefit from cleaner commuting options which also helps protect the environment. Transitioning from greenhouse gas (GHG) emitting public transit buses to ZEBs will help municipalities shift toward more sustainable transportation with a lower carbon footprint.

The ZEB investment commitment is another important step towards achieving the Government of Canada’s goal of 5,000 ZEBs.

The electrification of vehicles is a key initiative to help the City’s goal of reducing GHG emissions in City operations by 100 percent by 2040 and demonstrates the City’s commitment to lead by example. Each battery-electric bus will provide a savings of 35,000 litres of fuel every year, which is the annual consumption of a conventional diesel-powered bus.

Today the City of Ottawa will release a report, Zero-Emission Buses for OC Transpo, to be considered by the Transit Commission on June 16, 2021, requesting approval from Ottawa City Council to enter into an agreement with the Canada Infrastructure Bank (CIB). As part of the City’s 2022 capital budget, OC Transpo will recommend purchasing 74 40-foot battery-electric buses and the required charging infrastructure, for entry into service in 2023.

The CIB’s loan will cover the higher upfront capital costs of ZEBs compared to diesel buses, helping to accelerate the electrification of the City’s bus fleet. Financial savings are estimated to be substantial, as lifetime operating costs for ZEBs could be as much as 35 per cent lower than diesel buses.

Energy supply and charging infrastructure for this proposed transition will be supplied through an agreement with Hydro Ottawa.

The Canada Infrastructure Bank has a commitment to invest $1.5 billion in zero-emission buses and associated infrastructure, which will be coordinated with Infrastructure Canada’s new funding for zero-emission transit. This program, expected to formally launch in the near future, will support the purchase of zero-emission public transit and school buses.

 

Endorsements:

Cleaner air, quieter streets, and a planet safe for our kids – that’s the goal. By partnering with the City of Ottawa, the Canada Infrastructure Bank will help bring 450 new zero-emission buses to the streets of Ottawa, towards our commitment of 5,000 more zero emission buses across the country. It’s part of the Government’s plan to create good jobs and kickstart the economy, tackle climate change, and build more inclusive communities.

The Honourable Catherine McKenna, Minister of Infrastructure and Communities

Switching from diesel buses to battery-electric is one of the most impactful actions we can take to meet Ottawa’s goal of reducing by 100 per cent the GHGs emitted from City operations by 2040. This historic investment in zero-emission transit brings us one a step closer to achieving that goal and transitioning Ottawa into a clean, renewable and resilient city that is ready for the future.

Jim Watson, Mayor, City of Ottawa

I am delighted the CIB is making a major investment in the City of Ottawa’s ZEB initiative. 450 new zero-emission buses is a really big deal. Our partnership will help the City meet its climate targets and provide cleaner public transportation for future generations. This is a tremendous opportunity to modernize municipal infrastructure and build healthier communities. The CIB looks to invest in projects which improve the quality of life for Canadians, and this is a great example of that.

Ehren Cory, President and CEO, Canada Infrastructure Bank

Ottawa’s energy future isn’t just about being green, it’s about being sustainable. Our role at Hydro Ottawa is two-fold; to build the reliable electric infrastructure necessary to support our City’s commitment for a smart energy future; and to bring electricity into the 21st century by making sure the energy we use is generated with clean, renewable power. The electrification of our public transit system is critical for our city and nation’s capital to meet its energy and climate targets, and we are proud to play a part in helping achieve those goals.

Bryce Conrad, President and CEO, Hydro Ottawa Holding Inc. 

 

Quick Facts:

  • The CIB’s $1.5 billion zero-emission bus initiative assists transit agencies and school bus operators to transition their fleets to modern, environmentally friendly vehicles.
  • The CIB seeks to invest up to CAD $5 billion into public transit projects that are in the public interest and support Canadian sustainable economic growth.
  • The CIB’s investments are subject to due diligence and approval by its Board of Directors.

 

Learn More:

www.cibbicca

www.ottawa.ca

www.octranspo.com

https://jimwatsonottawa.ca/en/the-canada-infrastructure-bank-commits-up-to-400-million-in-the-city-of-ottawas-historic-450-zero-emission-bus-expansion/

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