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The City of Ottawa has released an update by email to media on the Prince of Wales Bridge and the Ottawa River Line. I have attached it below:

Quote

Memo: City of Ottawa and Canada Transportation Agency - Petition to Cabinet
City of Ottawa - Media Relations


Please find below an update on the Prince of Wales Bridge and Ottawa River Line.
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Mayor Watson, Members of Council and of the Transit Commission,
 
I am writing to advise that, earlier today, the Governor General in Council issued an Order in Council rescinding the Canada Transportation Agency’s Determination No. R-2018-23, which was directed at the City of Ottawa and related to the reinstatement of the Ottawa River Line and the Prince of Wales Bridge.  The Order in Council notes that, “the Agency’s Determination could, contrary to the national transportation policy set out in article 5 of the [Canada Transportation Act], impose on a railway company an obligation to invest in an unused and non-profitable railway line, encourage a railway company to follow the [discontinuance] process…to end its obligations in respect of an unused or non-profitable line sooner than it otherwise would have done, and discourage a railway company from buying available railway lines for future use.”  As a result, the Governor in Council (i.e. the Federal Cabinet) has, of its own motion, set aside the Agency’s February 2018 order against the City.
 
In addition, the Order in Council dismisses the petition filed by the Moose Consortium, which had sought to vary the Agency Determination to impose more stringent conditions on the City.
 
The Order in Council can be found at the following link: http://orders-in-council.canada.ca/attachment.php?attach=37618&lang=en
 
In light of the actions taken by the Governor General in Council, the City’s application to the Federal Court of Appeal is effectively rendered moot. The appeal hearing scheduled for later this week therefore need not proceed and the City’s legal counsel will be advising the Court accordingly.
 
Thanks,
Rick
 
M. Rick O’Connor, CMO
Certified Specialist (Municipal Law: Local Government
City Clerk and Solicitor
Office of the City Clerk and Solicitor
City of Ottawa
`

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So I let this one sink in a bit to see if I was just "Awesome train stuff biased..." about using the POW train bridge, well.., for trains... Turns out, I AM biased for using the bridge for its intende

You're wrong in a lot of ways. A train crossing the bridge would be highly beneficial in terms of ridership.  Why ? Because of the way the STO system is built. The system is built and guired to m

Sorry about that long comment. I come from the perspective that to be a fan you must be a realist. However dreaming is ok, even better I would say.  I would say that for me the bridge has a lot o

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This article in the oCitizen yesterday.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/denley-theres-little-sense-behind-the-latest-plan-for-the-prince-of-wales-bridge

 

Screenshot_20191003-102051.jpg

Anyone have any info as to what needs to be done to the bridge to "repair' it.  Only thing I have been able to decsern is that is really expensive if really heavy coal or steel hauling trains would be parked on it. But lightweight Trillium trains could begin testing as soon as they can get tracks hooked back up...anyone?

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I just realized that Minister of the Environment MP Catherine McKenna's riding includes the POW bridge.  I think we may have an election ploy here so she can campaign on being so wonderful for having a new cycling and walking bridge open for her constituents.  I have to believe politics are playing a role here.  And the day after the election, suddenly the POW is back on track.

But I still think that a simple experiment done next year to run Trillium over to the Tache bus stop could eliminate many STO buses from having to cross the river.  And yes, going to Bayview, the station designed as a transfer station.

Edited by Herlsone
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I am a bit puzzled by these columns by the Citizen. 

The Prince of Wales bridge is a stranded asset. It doesn’t link to anywhere in Gatineau. That 550 meters to Terrasses is a long way, and most of the employment is in Portage anyway which is further away. The last thing the STO needs is to have hordes of Ottawa passengers on its already full busses going to Portage and Ottawa. Because most of its passengers will still need to bussed to Ottawa the same way most of our passengers from the east and south east will need to bussed there. 

Theres no scenario where we eliminate busses by using the PoW bridge. 

And wait there’s more! 

After 5:00 pm that whole area of Terrasses and Portage is dead! Most restaurants are closed. I went to Boston Pizza on a weekday after 5:00 and it felt weird and creepy to be in that area. So why invest in such expensive to rebuild and maintain infrastructure when busses and LRT can do the job even better and at lower costs? We only need lots of busses a few hours of weekdays, evenings and weekends there’s enough busses to do the job.

Portage is such a liability that there’s been public talk by the Federal Government for years to demolish it and let something else be built. Not exactly something that would encourage cash strapped transit systems to invest in heavy infrastructure if a big trip generator might disappear. 

Speaking of cash strapped systems, it should be obvious to all that the city of Ottawa came to the same conclusion than the city of Gatineau, why pay big bucks to own and maintain both a bridge to no where and run busses as well when there’s a bridge nearby owned and maintained by the feds that will do nicely. 

I believe that’s the story of what’s happening with the PoW bridge. Gatineau’s plan to route its LRT over Portage Bridge makes a lot of sense and brings its passengers much closer to where they need to go. 

We shouldn’t fall into the trap of thinking that because once upon a time it served some purpose that it can do the same thing again. 

Gatineau and Ottawa are radically different than when the bridge was built and there’s a multiplicity of reasons why it got abandoned and stranded.  

Let’s not sink precious transit dollars on a bridge to nowhere

 

 

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On 2019-10-06 at 6:06 PM, Erick said:

Let’s not sink precious transit dollars on a bridge to nowhere

So I let this one sink in a bit to see if I was just "Awesome train stuff biased..." about using the POW train bridge, well.., for trains... Turns out, I AM biased for using the bridge for its intended purpose.  However, I took some time out of the boring part of my life: work, family, dog.., to put some action behind my thoughts.  As I posted elsewhere, I believe the argument that the POW bridge is too far west is false.   I did a small experiment.  Starting downtown, I took the Otrain to Bayview got out and "pretended" to take the Trillium to Tache bus transfer by taking an uber.  I boarded the Rabidbus and off I went. Making the assumption that my uber was actually a quick connect fast Trillium shuttle across the river, it was fast and simple.  On the way back, I got a taxi and made the driver (from Casino) take a route suggested by STO for their tram, all the way to Lyon, then transferred to the Otrain, then to Bayview, then onto line 2 for my theoretical trip to the airport.  Even taking 50% off the taxi time to account for coordinated/priority traffic lights or some below grade dedicated stretches... it was ridiculous.  If it was a rush hour commute or I was loaded with my suitcase for the off-rush trip to the airport, it was not workable as a real modern city solution.  Scientific? No. Representative? Yes.

The Bayview station is actually central to the entire metro area.  It is only west of downtown, it is east, north and south of many places! The largest growth is occurring in areas of the metro area that are not downtown Ottawa.  LRT Phase 2 will be bringing train access to many employers and entertainment areas.  I think people, including myself, forget how a proper train system (not bus/street tram) makes a city feel so much smaller geographically.

Bayview/POW/Tache/Rapidbus connects to the Airport.  I cannot stress how important this is to have simple mass transit access to the airport.  Very soon, we will have train access to the airport!  Almost the entire population of Gatineau (Hull, Gat, et. al.) will be within a very short walk/taxi/uber of a fast single-transfer public transit access to the airport.  The Rapidbus ends at Tache, the Trilliium can end there too.  Currently , to get to YOW, people in Gatineau have to pay a huge taxi fare (its horrible even from this side in the Market...), pay to park at the airport, or have a friend drop them off.  The time, convenience, money, and automobile trips saved to get to and from the airport is well worth this option. Edit - I forgot to mention that if Trillium comes over, and eventually converts entire Rapidbus to train, then most of Gatineau will have direct no-transfer train service to the airport.  Something most in Ottawa will never achieve.

To help things along, the airport is not a rush hour use only. YOW is basically a 18 hour operation, a huge employer, and that area of the city is growing like mad.  They need employee access and lots of employees like to live in less expensive areas, like Quebec.  To think that someone at the Lac Leamy Casino or anyone anywhere along the Rapidbus route, would go to the airport via a) get ride to rapidbus b) change to Hull street tram c) change at Lyon to Otrain d) change at Bayview for Line 2, is simply lunacy.  It would take forever and be highly NOT-convenient.  Even if they built a dedicated grade separated line that went to Pimisi from downtown Hull, its not practical to change at Pimisi then again at Bayview.

Fast and efficient connections are paramount for success.  Gatineau's plan of a street driving tram (or some sort of combination of street and grade separated) is neither fast nor efficient.  Just look at the new Kitchener/Waterloo system.  The new tram is really nice, but it is not fast in any sense of the word.  Uber will compete with them to no end.  Gatineau's "new" plan to use the Portage bridge to drop people on the street outside of the Lyon Otrain station is simply ridiculous at best.  We just removed the bus traffic from there with an expensive tunnel, and now we think bringing vehicles back to the curb is a good idea? That is not a real interconnected system.

Converting Gatineau's Rapidbus back to train does not have to be a billion dollar expense.  With the Trillium going to Tache, it would be simple to, one or two stations at a time, move the train/bus transfer station up the line and convert the buses from rapid bus use to train feeders. Because the way the line is laid out now, at grade boarding ,with no massive expense for elevators, would make this an inexpensive conversion.

This is just one of two needed train bridges - If we are serious about this, then we need a bridge east of downtown too (and convert the Alexandria bridge to LRT too) in order to make this all just wonderful

My 2 cents for today!

Edited by Herlsone
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Le 2019-10-18 à 13:14, Herlsone a dit :

So I let this one sink in a bit to see if I was just "Awesome train stuff biased..." about using the POW train bridge, well.., for trains... Turns out, I AM biased for using the bridge for its intended purpose.  However, I took some time out of the boring part of my life: work, family, dog.., to put some action behind my thoughts.  As I posted elsewhere, I believe the argument that the POW bridge is too far west is false.   I did a small experiment.  Starting downtown, I took the Otrain to Bayview got out and "pretended" to take the Trillium to Tache bus transfer by taking an uber.  I boarded the Rabidbus and off I went. Making the assumption that my uber was actually a quick connect fast Trillium shuttle across the river, it was fast and simple.  On the way back, I got a taxi and made the driver (from Casino) take a route suggested by STO for their tram, all the way to Lyon, then transferred to the Otrain, then to Bayview, then onto line 2 for my theoretical trip to the airport.  Even taking 50% off the taxi time to account for coordinated/priority traffic lights or some below grade dedicated stretches... it was ridiculous.  If it was a rush hour commute or I was loaded with my suitcase for the off-rush trip to the airport, it was not workable as a real modern city solution.  Scientific? No. Representative? Yes.


Erick: it’s not representative  at all and convoluted. Passengers from Ottawa by and large go to Portage and also Chaudière. And this is despite the fact that yes the federal Gov’t has offices elsewhere in Gatineau  we know that because that’s what multiple O-D inquiries done for OC and STO indicates that. So I am not claiming that no one would get any benefice out of PoW but we have to look at the larger picture. 
 

Gatineau passengers going to Ottawa are going to offices in the CBD or Tunney’s  

 

The Bayview station is actually central to the entire metro area.  It is only west of downtown, it is east, north and south of many places! The largest growth is occurring in areas of the metro area that are not downtown Ottawa.  LRT Phase 2 will be bringing train access to many employers and entertainment areas.  I think people, including myself, forget how a proper train system (not bus/street tram) makes a city feel so much smaller geographically.

Having used this a lot while living in Mtl I know this is not going to happen without commitments and investment in real estate (commercial and industrial). It’s never a case if “build it and they will come”.

There are no such plans at the moment. 
 

Also Ottawa as someone once said is not a city but a series of neighbourhoods linked by parks and the green belt. Hence the lack of density which hobbles our transit system.

Transit should definitely be a consideration when preparing plans, but by itself it won’t drive demand.

Le 2019-10-18 à 13:14, Herlsone a dit :

Bayview/POW/Tache/Rapidbus connects to the Airport.  I cannot stress how important this is to have simple mass transit access to the airport.  Very soon, we will have train access to the airport!  Almost the entire population of Gatineau (Hull, Gat, et. al.) will be within a very short walk/taxi/uber of a fast single-transfer public transit access to the airport.  The Rapidbus ends at Tache, the Trilliium can end there too.  Currently , to get to YOW, people in Gatineau have to pay a huge taxi fare (its horrible even from this side in the Market...), pay to park at the airport, or have a friend drop them off.  The time, convenience, money, and automobile trips saved to get to and from the airport is well worth this option. Edit - I forgot to mention that if Trillium comes over, and eventually converts entire Rapidbus to train, then most of Gatineau will have direct no-transfer train service to the airport.  Something most in Ottawa will never achieve.

To help things along, the airport is not a rush hour use only. YOW is basically a 18 hour operation, a huge employer, and that area of the city is growing like mad.  They need employee access and lots of employees like to live in less expensive areas, like Quebec.  To think that someone at the Lac Leamy Casino or anyone anywhere along the Rapidbus route, would go to the airport via a) get ride to rapidbus b) change to Hull street tram c) change at Lyon to Otrain d) change at Bayview for Line 2, is simply lunacy.  It would take forever and be highly NOT-convenient.  Even if they built a dedicated grade separated line that went to Pimisi from downtown Hull, its not practical to change at Pimisi then again at Bayview.
 

now this is where the argument becomes astonishing.

in a city where air travel is dominated by the public service and business communities, it’s clear that taking a taxi to the airport will continue even with a convenient way by transit to reach it. Their employer not only pays for the taxi but for their salaries. If I missed a flight because I took transit instead of a taxi there would be hell to pay. 
 

i believe you overinflate employment at the airport but also where they would come from. To live in Ottawa without a car is possible but really difficult. Once you have a car the marginal cost of driving to work where parking for employees is cheaper than for customers and not to mention centretown. 
 

So it’s quite a stretch to believe that many employees could even consider taking transit to the airport considering where they live.

 

Le 2019-10-18 à 13:14, Herlsone a dit :

Fast and efficient connections are paramount for success.  Gatineau's plan of a street driving tram (or some sort of combination of street and grade separated) is neither fast nor efficient.  Just look at the new Kitchener/Waterloo system.  The new tram is really nice, but it is not fast in any sense of the word.  Uber will compete with them to no end.  Gatineau's "new" plan to use the Portage bridge to drop people on the street outside of the Lyon Otrain station is simply ridiculous at best.  We just removed the bus traffic from there with an expensive tunnel, and now we think bringing vehicles back to the curb is a good idea? That is not a real interconnected system.
 

Yet this is all they can afford to build, but even more important to pay to maintain. 
 

It’s not only for medical services that the Outaouais is short changed but in provincial government spending overall. 
 

It is not contradictory for politicians in Gatineau to continue to demand that the province give them their fair share and yet at the same time recognize that historically they were short changed.

It’s not hard to understand why Gatineau cannot afford to touch the PoW and instead would rather rely on a bridge that’s paid for and maintained by the Federal Govt. And that too would be a consideration in Quebec City. 

Le 2019-10-18 à 13:14, Herlsone a dit :

Converting Gatineau's Rapidbus back to train does not have to be a billion dollar expense.  With the Trillium going to Tache, it would be simple to, one or two stations at a time, move the train/bus transfer station up the line and convert the buses from rapid bus use to train feeders. Because the way the line is laid out now, at grade boarding ,with no massive expense for elevators, would make this an inexpensive conversion.

I am surprised at this statement. Yes it’s really more expensive to do it bit by bit. It is really cheaper for a construction company to setup once and keep building. 
 

That suggestion of building by bits has been suggested many times in Toronto and proven to costs more.

Le 2019-10-18 à 13:14, Herlsone a dit :

This is just one of two needed train bridges - If we are serious about this, then we need a bridge east of downtown too (and convert the Alexandria bridge to LRT too) in order to make this all just wonderful

My 2 cents for today!

Where are the hordes of people travelling back and forth between our two cities? 
 

i appreciate your enthusiasm but I guess I am at a stage in my life where I have heard too many stories like the one you propose being used by fiscally conservative politicians to deride transit users as people who uses crayons on a map to build imaginary systems. 
 

I want a system that carries people from where they are to where they want to go. 
 

The question is what’s in Gatineau that Ottawans want to go that involves the bridge and same question for the Gatinois, where do they want to go in Ottawa? 
 

And no it’s not the airport as it’s really a low volume airport. 

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I don’t remember when but some time last year the Mayor of Gatineau complained that almost no one from Ottawa came over to shop and get entertained. 
 

Which made me realized that Ottawa is organized in such a way that I rarely need to leave my neighbourhood to go shopping. 
 

I leave it to go to work ( in the heart of centretown), my numerous medical appointments and visit friends and family. Occasionally for entertainment which has yet to include Gatineau.

now that’s just me, but at work seeing that almost all my colleagues put their Presto or Passe-Partout in the same plastic holder as their work pass/badge tells me that they will never be caught dead in the back of a 40ft on a Saturday afternoon. 
 

Which is pretty much what OC keeps saying. Which also explains why our transit system is geared towards rush hour service. Because it has to.
 

it’s ok to dream but at some point it’s important to see how that dream matches up with reality. I read this tread and similar on other forums and I keep reading the same things, some would clearly benefit from using the bridge, other seem to think that a transit system is there to offer diversity when they go fanning and taking pictures. 
 

But I have yet to see how it fits not only with the transit system but with the urban fabric of our region. 
 

Perhaps it’s there and I can’t see it. Or perhaps it would fit as part of a larger project to change both Ottawa and Gatineau. And that’s the reason I keep reading because I hope that someone here has that vision that our civic leaders and I lack. 
 

However it’s possible that I can’t see it because it’s not there. As a citizen I am afraid that this could be a bridge too far.

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You're wrong in a lot of ways. A train crossing the bridge would be highly beneficial in terms of ridership. 

Why ? Because of the way the STO system is built. The system is built and guired to make ALL bus go through Portage and Terrasses de la Chaudière. The Problem with that logic is that anybody from Gatineau who isn't going downtown has to pass through downtown to go anywhere in Ottawa. The only STO lines that aren't going through Portage and Ottawa's Downtown/CBD are rush-hour bus that only serve Aylmer using the overcrowded Champlain Bridge.

A train passing on the bidge would likely stop at UQO/Taché. Such a thing would be highly beneficial for Gatinois (leaving in Aylmer or Hull) going to Ottawa without having to go all the way through Portage especially for government workers working at Tunney's. All routes going to Ottawa from Aylmer, Hull or Plateau pass by UQO/Taché and many people would rather choose to transfer at UQO and get on Ottawa's heavy and frequent LRT then having to go all the way to Lyon Station or even wait up to 20mins at Portage for an OC Transpo bus that would likely drop them at an LRT Station anyway. That's about 20 routes with 7 of them working day round and 4 of those 7 being backbone line for STO (22, 23, 24, 29, 34, 36, 37, 371, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 55, 58, 59, 800). This would be even useful for people going east of Ottawa. The flow of passenger would also be pretty steady since most people using transit in Gatineau are making trips to Ottawa (Work, Shopping, Sport). Even for people living in Ottawa and working at the Government office close to Galleries de Hull they wouldn't have to transfer on an STO bus at Portage!

Overall such an extension would be beneficial ... But beneficial for who ? Gatinois. And that's why the Bridge train option will most likely never happen. It's much more beneficial for people from Gatineau then people from Ottawa since we have an asymmetric power relation/population between the two cities. In the mind of OC and Ottawa city Council why would we pay for an extension that will benefit people who aren't paying taxes and transit fee in Ottawa for Ottawa. On a 100% ratio probably 80% of the passengers using the extension would be Gatinois using a Multi! Card, paying taxes in Quebec and Gatineau. These same Gatinois would come and charge Bayview station with even more passengers with the impact of overflowing trains during rush hour. That's Ottawa's fear and the reason why any extension using the POW would need to be negotiated by all Federal, Provincial and Local government bodies, because who pays for what ? Is it even worth the trouble ?

Edited by Matth69000
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5 hours ago, Erick said:

I want a system that carries people from where they are to where they want to go. 
 

The question is what’s in Gatineau that Ottawans want to go that involves the bridge and same question for the Gatinois, where do they want to go in Ottawa? 
 

And no it’s not the airport as it’s really a low volume airport. 

Too much to quote here!  I see all of your points and for sure get your reasoning, and yes I more of a fan than a realist. I for sure am enthusiastic!   

I think people are overestimating the "free bridge" concept of the Portage bridge.  It will need a lot of work to put any train system on it and if its grade separated it will basically need all sorts of new engineering.  If it is not grade separated, then forget it being quick and useful for commuters. 

One of the newer reasons that people do not flock to Hull after hours is that uber does not work there.  I know there are taxis, but simply put, most people I know don't take taxis at all anymore, so if you cant get home, why go?  But that wasn't my point.  My point was just convert them Rapidbus to be part of the trillium line and it will be a huge benefit to the entire region, Buses for now or a street tram just going back and for on Tache and around downtown Hull will suffice there..  The taxi "chit" system will be ending at some point here as its a frivolous expense when a $3 train goes to the airport (think of the political ads! "He paid 2,000% more for a private ride to the airport when us common-folk take the train... Don't vote for Evil Man...)  The taxi perk will die like ...well like taxis are dying.  On the other hand, an easy train ride/connection to Hull for university students, now that would work for sure...and not a rush hour use either.  ?

The economic power of the airport and what it can provide to the area, even if small now, should never be underestimated.  Setting that place up for future growth is worth every cent invested.  And easy transportation there...yup.  I am sure the future will hold high(er) taxes/tariffs for any taxi/ride share/private car, the train will become the better option for business travelers and government.  I have only been here a little over 4 years...and its a totally different place than it was.  Edit - I forgot to mention that with the operations of the airport moving to a privately run operation instead of a Crown Corp, there will be a far larger push on growth.

I agree with the build it and they don't come idea.  That is why I was surprised at phase 2 having a lot of stations built in the highway or not building at the same time a planned high density community around the stations.  Stops in the middle of highways in cities that have winters....forget it.  Nobody goes out of their way to use it. 

I was just in Toronto and visited the new developments going up near the Barrie and Richmond Hill lines.  My mind "thunk" oh good plan, build high density around the train stops.  But I was severely disappointed.  Instead of the station being central to the development, its off to the side and lots of farmland was turned into parking lots with a condo tower another parking lot, another tower there, one farther away, more parking lots, big box plaza shopping centers with parking lots.  Could easily have made a community.

The way Ottawa it laid out now with sprawling housing tracts, I dont see that being practical to sustain public transit growth to all these new and planned single family housing areas.  We need to build into our system a change in the fabric of the city.  But all that is way past my initial point....

Airport --->>> Trillium Line-->>>POW BRIDGE <<<----Rapidbus.  and the only thing that needs attention is the bridge... "HMMMM , we built this neat transit system with a nice  interconnection stop here at Bayview.... and right across the river...well look at that, there is the terminal end of the new Rapidbus right across the river....if we only had a bridge... HAH!   And seriously converting the rapidbus back to diesel train with electric in the future is easy, stations are there, right of way is there.

On the downside, I did hear of some intense lobbying to not do the POW bridge because that would not be a massive construction project with boatload of jobs for Quebec.  So politics rears its head early on.

Edited by Herlsone
airport stuff
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14 minutes ago, Matth69000 said:

Overall such an extension would be beneficial ... But beneficial for who ? Gatinois. And that's why the Bridge train option will most likely never happen. It's much more beneficial for people from Gatineau then people from Ottawa since we have an asymmetric power relation/population between the two cities. In the mind of OC and Ottawa city Council why would we pay for an extension that will benefit people who aren't paying taxes and transit fee in Ottawa for Ottawa. On a 100% ratio probably 80% of the passengers using the extension would be Gatinois using a Multi! Card, paying taxes in Quebec and Gatineau. These same Gatinois would come and charge Bayview station with even more passengers with the impact of overflowing trains during rush hour. That's Ottawa's fear and the reason why any extension using the POW would need to be negotiated by all Federal, Provincial and Local government bodies, because who pays for what ? Is it even worth the trouble ?

This is why eventually we will need an authority set up to manage all the inter-province transportation and infrastructure. Bus and train trips, bridge management, tunnels, etc..   Like the PATH in New York and New Jersey, BART in the San Fran metro area, etc...

Even without a setup like this, revenue sharing based on big data analytics is not difficult anymore.  Even without a London UK zone type tap in/tap out system, scientific samples of peoples behavior and traffic patterns can now be done just from cell phone tower data.  The city could buy data from Rogers and Bell, "how many people with 613 numbers spend the day in QC and rode a bus/train during rush hour or the reverse, (I am obviously simplifying this, but not much!) and share revenue accordingly.  We could do this tomorrow and stop having 2 different bus systems running across the river.  

Or.... we do a London style zone system and get contactless/interact cards working an then you can have variable/dynamic pricing... (There is that enthusiasm running amok again... ? )

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Le 2019-10-20 à 20:32, Herlsone a dit :

Too much to quote here!  I see all of your points and for sure get your reasoning, and yes I more of a fan than a realist. I for sure am enthusiastic!   

I think people are overestimating the "free bridge" concept of the Portage bridge.  It will need a lot of work to put any train system on it and if its grade separated it will basically need all sorts of new engineering.  If it is not grade separated, then forget it being quick and useful for commuters. 

One of the newer reasons that people do not flock to Hull after hours is that uber does not work there.  I know there are taxis, but simply put, most people I know don't take taxis at all anymore, so if you cant get home, why go?  But that wasn't my point.  My point was just convert them Rapidbus to be part of the trillium line and it will be a huge benefit to the entire region, Buses for now or a street tram just going back and for on Tache and around downtown Hull will suffice there..  The taxi "chit" system will be ending at some point here as its a frivolous expense when a $3 train goes to the airport (think of the political ads! "He paid 2,000% more for a private ride to the airport when us common-folk take the train... Don't vote for Evil Man...)  The taxi perk will die like ...well like taxis are dying.  On the other hand, an easy train ride/connection to Hull for university students, now that would work for sure...and not a rush hour use either.  ?

The economic power of the airport and what it can provide to the area, even if small now, should never be underestimated.  Setting that place up for future growth is worth every cent invested.  And easy transportation there...yup.  I am sure the future will hold high(er) taxes/tariffs for any taxi/ride share/private car, the train will become the better option for business travelers and government.  I have only been here a little over 4 years...and its a totally different place than it was.  Edit - I forgot to mention that with the operations of the airport moving to a privately run operation instead of a Crown Corp, there will be a far larger push on growth.

I agree with the build it and they don't come idea.  That is why I was surprised at phase 2 having a lot of stations built in the highway or not building at the same time a planned high density community around the stations.  Stops in the middle of highways in cities that have winters....forget it.  Nobody goes out of their way to use it. 

I was just in Toronto and visited the new developments going up near the Barrie and Richmond Hill lines.  My mind "thunk" oh good plan, build high density around the train stops.  But I was severely disappointed.  Instead of the station being central to the development, its off to the side and lots of farmland was turned into parking lots with a condo tower another parking lot, another tower there, one farther away, more parking lots, big box plaza shopping centers with parking lots.  Could easily have made a community.

The way Ottawa it laid out now with sprawling housing tracts, I dont see that being practical to sustain public transit growth to all these new and planned single family housing areas.  We need to build into our system a change in the fabric of the city.  But all that is way past my initial point....

Airport --->>> Trillium Line-->>>POW BRIDGE <<<----Rapidbus.  and the only thing that needs attention is the bridge... "HMMMM , we built this neat transit system with a nice  interconnection stop here at Bayview.... and right across the river...well look at that, there is the terminal end of the new Rapidbus right across the river....if we only had a bridge... HAH!   And seriously converting the rapidbus back to diesel train with electric in the future is easy, stations are there, right of way is there.

On the downside, I did hear of some intense lobbying to not do the POW bridge because that would not be a massive construction project with boatload of jobs for Quebec.  So politics rears its head early on.

Sorry about that long comment. I come from the perspective that to be a fan you must be a realist. However dreaming is ok, even better I would say. 

I would say that for me the bridge has a lot of risk of turning into a nightmare. However coupled with a redevelopment plan on both sides of the river and then the bridge would suddenly become a key piece of infrastructure. 

As for Portage the dirty secret is that it was designed with tramways in mind, so I am not surprised at all that Gatineau would want to route its LRT there. That being said, has Portage been well maintained? If not, well like you say a lot of money would be sunk. But long term, the Feds would pick up the tab for the most important part. And unfortunately, because the Fed would remain responsible for the major costs of maintaining that bridge, I see no way that Gatineau would pass this up and use Prince of Wales, which is really out of the way of where their customers want to go (which is centre town offices, market).

There's no need for grade separation, reserved lanes are good enough for what's it's meant for: a workday commuter train and cost-reduction. Except with downtown Hull I just don't see how you can live in Gatineau without a car, hence why the transit share is as low as it is. It's not going to go up without a radical redesign of the downtown Hull area. 

I like your idea of converting the Rapibus into rail, but Québec politics being what it is, it's not happening ever. I left Québec (Mtl area) for many reasons including the politics. Not happening. Plus it's also about the culture. I am a francophone and to this day, many Gatinois are in disbelief that I chose to live in Ontario. 

An anecdote with regards to taxis to the airport. At the time of the north-south plan, I was living in Vankleek Hill and complained to my MPP that it did not made sense to go on airport property and not stop there. The reply of then MPP (Lalonde since retired) was even if the taxi company is against I agree with you that the train should go to the terminal. Note I did not raise the issue of taxis, he did. 

Coming from the Mtl area I am actually well aware of the tendency by politicians and business people of way overestimating how much economic development an airport generates. So I do not expect our airport to generate more than Dorval. 

I live in Orléans/Cumberland and the reason for the highway stops is cost and ease of construction (the city owns the 174). It actually makes sense in that going east-west is always difficult, but even at rush hour, north-south is not an issue. So having the local buses go to the highway stop makes sense it's quick and easy. What I am not happy about is the Cumberland Transitway which is just a scheme to pay for general use road along with the transitway.

I was surprised at the sprawl in Ottawa but having read up and spoken to born and raised Ottawans it's clear that when time came to redevelop the old neighbourhoods there was a lot of opposition. So much so that the neighbouring areas told developers: stop wasting your time and come on over, we have plenty of cheap land. The old city of Ottawa was only happy to not touch the old neighbourhoods despite being told by the Federal Gov't of the plans to significantly increase staffing levels. So it's not really a choice, there's not enough housing in the old city to accommodate everyone. And that causes a big headache for transit planning and provision.

There is simply not enough demand to justify major interprovincial transit investments. The issue is that like I wrote in my previous comment, by and large Gatinois and Ottawans can get pretty much all they want in their neighbourhood without having to cross the river. And until we have that reason to cross the river outside of work, we cannot justify such investments. 

What demand there is, and I clearly see there is some, can adequately be covered by buses and eventually by the STO LRT. 

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Le 2019-10-20 à 20:24, Matth69000 a dit :

You're wrong in a lot of ways. A train crossing the bridge would be highly beneficial in terms of ridership. 

Entirely possible I have been wrong before. 

Le 2019-10-20 à 20:24, Matth69000 a dit :

Why ? Because of the way the STO system is built. The system is built and guired to make ALL bus go through Portage and Terrasses de la Chaudière. The Problem with that logic is that anybody from Gatineau who isn't going downtown has to pass through downtown to go anywhere in Ottawa. The only STO lines that aren't going through Portage and Ottawa's Downtown/CBD are rush-hour bus that only serve Aylmer using the overcrowded Champlain Bridge.

I understand that it is not practical for Gatineau passengers not going to downtown Hull or Centretown Ottawa, but there's a reason the STO network is designed that way, it's where the majority of its passengers want/need to go. 

Le 2019-10-20 à 20:24, Matth69000 a dit :

A train passing on the bidge would likely stop at UQO/Taché. Such a thing would be highly beneficial for Gatinois (leaving in Aylmer or Hull) going to Ottawa without having to go all the way through Portage especially for government workers working at Tunney's.

Isn't the demand for Aylmer-Tunney's adequately served by the current buses? I have a colleague who lives in Aylmer and works in Vanier and loves the Confederation Line as it cut 30 min off his commute. 

But long term I am not so sure that the Federal Government wants to stay at Tunney's. They certainly have made many statements about that, and the kerfuffle about where the new Civic hospital is going makes me think that developers would love to put a sea of condos there. Certainly Mayor Watson's reaction made me think about that. That's another important consideration, most of the building there are overdue for demolition and reconstruction...

Le 2019-10-20 à 20:24, Matth69000 a dit :

 

All routes going to Ottawa from Aylmer, Hull or Plateau pass by UQO/Taché and many people would rather choose to transfer at UQO and get on Ottawa's heavy and frequent LRT then having to go all the way to Lyon Station or even wait up to 20mins at Portage for an OC Transpo bus that would likely drop them at an LRT Station anyway.

The issue is that a lot of STO passengers would walk to their destination without requiring to get on board the O-Train if the STO LRT goes to Lyon. The Prince of Wales introduces an unnecessary transfer to a lot of passengers. Once the STO LRT is up and running I don't see why anyone would need to wait for an OC bus for any length of time at Portage. Perhaps that's what's misunderstood about the plan and why the PoW may not see rail service again. 

An STO LRT can do a great job of quickly carrying passengers to Lyon station, where the roads have been redone for STO buses (or eventual LRT) to go to. Quick and easy transfer to where most passengers want to go, which is not the Trilium line. 

Le 2019-10-20 à 20:24, Matth69000 a dit :

Overall such an extension would be beneficial ... But beneficial for who ? Gatinois. And that's why the Bridge train option will most likely never happen. It's much more beneficial for people from Gatineau then people from Ottawa since we have an asymmetric power relation/population between the two cities. In the mind of OC and Ottawa city Council why would we pay for an extension that will benefit people who aren't paying taxes and transit fee in Ottawa for Ottawa. On a 100% ratio probably 80% of the passengers using the extension would be Gatinois using a Multi! Card, paying taxes in Quebec and Gatineau. These same Gatinois would come and charge Bayview station with even more passengers with the impact of overflowing trains during rush hour. That's Ottawa's fear and the reason why any extension using the POW would need to be negotiated by all Federal, Provincial and Local government bodies, because who pays for what ? Is it even worth the trouble ?

That's the thing, I don't think it would be beneficial to a large number of Gatinois. Some? No doubt, but the STO clearly made the case that the destination is mostly Centretown, and depending on how Lebreton Flat is redeveloped few would need to go there from Gatineau. I have no reason to doubt the analysis of the STO here. I actually believe that their LRT plan makes a lot of sense and that us in Ottawa should do what we can to help them accomplish it. 

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Once again, too much to quote, and good points made.... and without going into any sort of detail at all about bridges.., I think what most people (if I may be duly appointed the spokesman for "most people...") ultimately think, is that taking a transit bus sucks.  It's steerage class compared to a metro or local transit train and is downright tortuous compared to an uber.  Generally trains have stations and infrastructure, generally the bus has a cold shelter on the side of the road on which you stand in the rain and snow and you have nowhere to move to on the bus when the guy that never showers sits next to you.  Never confuse enthusiasm with realism! Compare compromise and boring with realism! ? Cheers.

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